Again, yes, Hamas have done terrible things. I'm on record with my condemnation for their actions. Israel have done terrible things. I'm on record with my condemnation for those too. The point is, as I'm sure you've heard a million times by now, this war didn't start on Oct 7th.
If you want to get all moral relativism about this, if we tally up everything Hamas and Israel have done over the past 75 years, Israel have Hamas beat by a mile. Hamas haven't even existed for a significant chunk of the time Israel has been doing terrible things. Heck, even if you just consider the Nakba, Israel comes off worse. And that includes the raping and killing of civilians.
But if your standard is that because some countries have committed atrocities, all atrocities are fair game, then everybody can do anything they want as long as its not worse than the Holocaust, right? Or perhaps Hiroshima (although Israel already have Hiroshima beat in terms of explosive power, and are coming up on Nagasaki in terms of deaths).
And I could even, perhaps, understand this mindset. War is hell and all that. But what I can't stomach is you justifying atrocities in this way, and in the same breath, trying to hold Israel up as some paragon of virtue and righteousness.
"Oh, they drop leaflets, they do everything possible to protect innocent lives [despite the mountains of evidence to the contrary], what they're doing isn't as bad as some other things we universally recognise as evil war crimes, so why shouldn't they get to commit a little genocide?"
There is a great deal of room between keeping "completely clean hands" and the evil Israel is doing and has been doing for decades. Please stop pretending there isn't.
Anyway, on to specifics:
Deaths (actual): Being more powerful does not mean you have to kill more people. This is obvious, no? Especially if you care about being "discriminate."
Deaths (attitude): I already touched on this above, but your insistence that Israel's policy is to protect life, despite the mountains of evidence to the contrary, is getting ridiculous. Literally everybody on the ground in the region disagrees with you. But you think you know better because you uncritically accept Israeli propaganda.
Deaths (responsibility): "Hamas hides below civilians whenever possible."
Speaking of propaganda...
Again, your'e repeating Israel's claims with almost no evidence. We've seen no tunnels or even claims of tunnels beneath the vast majority of land and homes Israel has bombed into rubble. Yet here, you believe the IDF uncritically. But when you read an eye-witness account of Israel using children as human shields, suddenly it "may be true." I'm going to keep highlighting your desperation to minimise Israel's wrongdoing until you at least acknowledge it.
You also keep talking about IDF policy as if you have the slightest idea what it is. I have to say, if all these "anecdotes" are against IDF policy, the IDF is doing an absolutely terrible job of enforcing their policies. Heck, some of the soldiers even posted videos of themselves on TikTok violating "IDF policy." And not a peep about any disciplinary action. Even for the soldiers who killed the hostages.
Safe zones: 84 journalists have been killed so far in Gaza. More than in any conflict since they began keeping records. So it's difficult to say how clear a picture we're getting of civilian deaths in safe zones (and no way, other than wishful thinking, to claim it's a "tiny fraction"). But there have still been several stories and videos of people being killed while unarmed and waving white flags. Most famously, of course, the Israeli hostages.
"(Btw, your link does not mention conflicting info given to stay in Khan Younis)"
Yes it does. From the link:
"After days of ordering residents to flee the area, Israeli forces dropped new leaflets on Dec 5 with instructions to stay inside shelters and hospitals during the assault.
“Do not get out. Going out is dangerous. You have been warned,” said the leaflets, addressed to residents of six districts amounting to around a quarter of Khan Younis."
The IDF killed Layan's family on Dec 7th.
End state: We don't disagree that Hamas need to be driven from power. We disagree on whether killing tens of thousands of civilians will achieve that. Or was even ever intended to achieve that. Hamas don't care about being in power. They've made next to no effort to govern or provide for the people of Gaza. They care about killing Jews. And they can do that as long as they have the materials to make suicide bombs and have people willing to blow themselves up.
The way to make Israel safe is to change the unjust conditions that make people want to fight for Hamas. What Israel is doing now will achieve precisely the opposite.
Bigger risks: This is nothing to do with taking hostages. Right now, Israelis are protesting in the streets because Netanyahu isn't doing enough to protect the hostages. For all anybody knows, the IDF has already blown them all up.
And let's be serious, no other countries are going to attack Israel and take hostages if they stop bombing Gazans. This is pure hysteria. Nobody over there wants a war with America and Europe and they know that's what they'd get. Besides, I'm not even suggesting a ceasefire. I'm suggesting an end to the very obvious attempt to make Gaza unliveable and to drive Palestinians out of their land (or starve them to death). I’m suggesting a better strategy for destroying Hamas than “just kill everybody in Gaza, even if they’re women or children or waving a white flag.”
Anyway, maybe I'm an idiot, so I'd really love to hear how you think the current massacre ends. What, specifically, are the success criteria? How do Israel and the rest of the world know when those criteria have been achieved? Is it enough that the party called Hamas is removed form power? Even if another party that hates Israel even more takes their place?
Most importantly, what is an acceptable number of civilian deaths to achieve those criteria? Or is there no upper limit? Is it worth adding things like giving back the land Israel stole and ending the settlements and discrimination and lifting the blockade on 2 million innocent people into those "cold calculations"? Or should Israel simply kill everybody who has a problem with it's numerous violations of international law?
